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<time datetime="2017-08-30T18:34:30">August 30, 2017 6:34 pm</time>
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<h1 class="entry-title">Some new Venn diagrams inspired by Hurricane Harvey</h1>
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<a href="https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/VennTexasGasPricesHarvey.png"><img class="alignnone wp-image-955675 size-full" src="https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/VennTexasGasPricesHarvey.png" alt="" width="1755" height="761" srcset="https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/VennTexasGasPricesHarvey.png 1755w, https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/VennTexasGasPricesHarvey-768x333.png 768w, https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/VennTexasGasPricesHarvey-266x115.png 266w, https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/VennTexasGasPricesHarvey-500x217.png 500w, https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/VennTexasGasPricesHarvey-1453x630.png 1453w, https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/VennTexasGasPricesHarvey-320x139.png 320w" sizes="(max-width: 1755px) 100vw, 1755px" /></a>
<p>1. <strong>Venn Diagram of the Day I</strong> (above). Many people easily understand that a major Category 4 hurricane in Texas like Harvey will cause significant disruptions in the market for delivering, processing, and refining crude oil into gasoline, which will naturally put upward pressure on retail gasoline prices. The chart above inside the Venn diagram shows that retail gas prices in Texas have been rising steadily since Harvey hit Texas last Friday. Prices at the pump may spike another 35 cents per gallon in the next two weeks &#8220;due to high Labor Day demand and Hurricane Harvey forcing refinery shutdowns along the Gulf Coast&#8221; according to <a href="http://www.mysanantonio.com/business/eagle-ford-energy/article/Gas-prices-in-Texas-may-spike-35-cents-in-2-weeks-12158968.php">this news report</a>. Note the two forces that together both put upward pressure on gas prices: a) higher demand for gas due to Labor Day and b) lower gasoline supply from refinery shutdowns on the Gulf Coast.</p>
<p>Makes perfect sense, right? Easy to understand, right? But some of the same people who understand those economic realities about rising gasoline prices following Hurricane Harvey will at the same time express their strong support for anti-price-gouging laws for critical supplies like gasoline and water?? In that case, shouldn&#8217;t the hundreds of gas stations across Texas raising gasoline prices this week be prosecuted? And is there any difference between Harvey-related higher prices for gasoline and Harvey-related higher prices for water or hotel rooms, when in all cases the higher prices reflect the same market dynamics of rising demand interacting with lower supply? And if it&#8217;s just a matter of gasoline prices not rising enough yet to violate arbitrary price gouging laws, at what level will they be considered &#8220;exorbitant or excessive&#8221; &#8212; which is the<a href="https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/cpd/price-gouging"> legal standard in Texas</a>? A 35 cent per gallon price spike probably seems pretty excessive and exorbitant to many of the hurricane victims, so let&#8217;s see some prosecution by the Attorney General!</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">=========================================</p>
<img class="alignnone size-full wp-image-955681" src="https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/VennTexasHurricaneHarvey.png" alt="" width="800px" srcset="https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/VennTexasHurricaneHarvey.png 1735w, https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/VennTexasHurricaneHarvey-768x335.png 768w, https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/VennTexasHurricaneHarvey-266x116.png 266w, https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/VennTexasHurricaneHarvey-500x218.png 500w, https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/VennTexasHurricaneHarvey-1446x630.png 1446w, https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/VennTexasHurricaneHarvey-320x139.png 320w" sizes="(max-width: 1735px) 100vw, 1735px" />
<p>2. <strong>Venn Diagram of the Day II</strong> (above) helps to graphically illustrate the intellectual inconsistency of many <del>protectionists</del> <strong>scarcityists</strong> (as Jon Murphy calls them). Scarcityists are those who support protectionist trade policies and claim that erecting trade barriers are economically beneficial even though they restrict the flow of goods entering the country from foreign producers, raise prices for Americans, restrict consumers&#8217; choices, and reduce competition. One common justification for protecting US domestic producers from foreign competition with tariffs is that foreign taxpayers &#8220;unfairly&#8221; subsidize their producers, making it difficult for domestic producers to compete against subsidized lower-cost producers. And the greater the foreign subsidy, the greater the tariff necessary to counteract that &#8220;unfair&#8221; charity to Americans.</p>
<p>To be logically consistent, scarcityists should now argue that residents of the devastated Houston area will benefit economically by artificially restricting or stopping the flow of goods entering that area from outside sources, possibly by imposing taxes (tariffs) on those critical goods. If erecting trade barriers and reducing the flow of foreign goods into the US makes Americans better off, then erecting trade barriers and reducing the flow of goods into the Houston area should make local residents there better off according to scarcityism. Moreover, the scarcityists would further object if the goods flowing into the Houston area (clothing, food, water, and other critical supplies) were being &#8220;unfairly&#8221; subsidized by charitable organizations or private corporations. And in the crazy world of the scarcityists, the ultimate &#8220;unfair&#8221; subsidy &#8211; providing free goods to Houston residents by outsiders &#8212; should be counteracted with very stiff taxes/tariffs using the &#8220;greater the foreign subsidy, the stiffer the punitive tariff&#8221; principle of many scarcityists.</p>
<p>Thanks to Jon Murphy for inspiring the second Venn diagram and that part of the post.</p>
<ul class="entry-tags">
<li><a href="https://www.aei.org/tag/protectionism/">Protectionism</a></li>
<li><a href="https://www.aei.org/tag/trade/">Trade</a></li>
<li><a href="https://www.aei.org/tag/venn-diagram/">Venn Diagram</a></li>
</ul>
</div>
<div id="discussion">
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<h3 class="comments-title">
<strong>Discussion:</strong>
(87 comments)
</h3>
<ol class="comment-list">
<li id="comment-184406" class="comment even thread-even depth-1">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn">Joe B.</cite> <time datetime="2017-08-30">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184406">August 30th, 2017</a>
</time>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p>So I am on a billionaire&#8217;s yacht. The billionaire tumbles into the water, and cannot swim. </p>
<p>I grab a lifesaver, about to toss it to him&#8212;and I ponder. Why should I expend the effort? What is my reward? What is in it for me?</p>
<p>So I make a deal with the billionaire: &#8220;I will toss you this lifesaver, if you give to me this $5 million yacht.&#8221; </p>
<p>The billionaires agrees, says yes, and we both benefit from the transaction.</p>
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<cite class="fn"><a href='http://force4good.me' rel='external nofollow' class='url'>Jon Murphy</a></cite> <time datetime="2017-08-30">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184410">August 30th, 2017</a>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p>Ok?</p>
</div>
<p class="comment-links">
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<li id="comment-184418" class="comment even depth-3">
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<cite class="fn">Not Sure</cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184418">August 31st, 2017</a>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p>He&#8217;s trying to show how people can be real jerks. Hint- don&#8217;t go sailing with Joe unless you have a lot of money.</p>
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<li id="comment-184426" class="comment odd alt depth-4">
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<cite class="fn">Zachriel</cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184426">August 31st, 2017</a>
</time>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p><b>Not Sure</b>: <i>Hint- don’t go sailing with Joe unless you have a lot of money.</i></p>
<p>Actually, the scenario applies at any level of wealth, whether the boat is a dinghy or a yacht. Or he could ask for a promissory note for ten thousand dollars, or a night with his wife. </p>
<p>This is an example of price gouging that nearly everyone would find to be morally reprehensible.</p>
</div>
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<li id="comment-184455" class="comment even depth-5">
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<cite class="fn">Ron H.</cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184455">August 31st, 2017</a>
</time>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p>Z:</p>
<p>&#8220;<i>This is an example of price gouging that nearly everyone would find to be morally reprehensible.</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>Therefore &#8230; what? &#8220;Everyone&#8221; should force their moral values on Joe? May we assume that you would favor passing a law making it illegal for Joe to fail to save Monty, so that you could seek retribution against Joe even though you aren&#8217;t a victim of anything in this case and aren&#8217;t entitled to compensation in any form?</p>
<p>Joe isn&#8217;t responsible for Monty&#8217;s misfortune, and therefore has no obligation to make decisions about whether or not to take positive actions to improve Monty&#8217;s condition. The fact that most people are naturally compassionate and generous, and would help Monty instinctively and without hesitation doesn&#8217;t help your argument here.</p>
<p>If this is just a negotiation over price, as you suggest, then Joe can be faulted for charging Monty for *anything* he might need &#8211; a cup of coffee, a haircut, a new car &#8211; no matter what subjective values the two parties place on the product or service involved. You are projecting your values onto a negotiation between Joe and Monty in which you have no direct interest.</p>
<p>Similarly, you appear to be projecting your interpretation of what constitutes &#8220;price gouging&#8221; onto negotiations by parties whose subjective values you have no no way of knowing.</p>
<p>The economic argument here is that in a world where scarcity exists, the signal provided to both suppliers and demanders by price signals is superior to any other way of rationing and allocating scarce resources, and alleviates shortages more quickly.</p>
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<li id="comment-184427" class="comment odd alt depth-4">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn">Zachriel</cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184427">August 31st, 2017</a>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p><b>Not Sure</b>: <i>Hint- don’t go sailing with Joe unless you have a lot of money.</i></p>
<p>Another way of looking at it is that he is just charging what the market will bear.</p>
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<li id="comment-184464" class="comment even depth-5">
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<cite class="fn">Ron H.</cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184464">August 31st, 2017</a>
</time>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p>Z:</p>
<p>&#8220;<i>Another way of looking at it is that he is just charging what the market will bear.</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes. Merchants are at all times charging what the market will bear.</p>
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<li id="comment-184471" class="comment odd alt depth-5">
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<cite class="fn">Zachriel</cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184471">August 31st, 2017</a>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p><b>Ron H</b>: <i>Merchants are at all times charging what the market will bear.</i></p>
<p>And the reductio ad absurdum is charging $5 million for throwing a lifesaver.</p>
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<li id="comment-184473" class="comment even depth-5">
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<cite class="fn"><a href='http://force4good.me' rel='external nofollow' class='url'>Jon Murphy</a></cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184473">August 31st, 2017</a>
</time>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p>It&#8217;s not really a reductio because the logic and the argument still holds. I&#8217;m not quite sure what you think you&#8217;ve shown.</p>
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<li id="comment-184486" class="comment odd alt depth-5">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn">Ron H.</cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184486">August 31st, 2017</a>
</time>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p>Z:</p>
<p>&#8220;<i>And the reductio ad absurdum is charging $5 million for throwing a lifesaver.</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>Which you obviously believe is too high. Thank goodness it&#8217;s not your judgement that matters here, but that of the parties involved.</p>
<p>Our grocer continually and repeatedly charges us what the market will bear.</p>
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<li id="comment-184430" class="comment even depth-4">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn"><a href='http://force4good.me' rel='external nofollow' class='url'>Jon Murphy</a></cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184430">August 31st, 2017</a>
</time>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p>Morality in this conversation is irrelevant, and it&#8217;s not even clear he&#8217;s being immoral. He did save a man&#8217;s life, after all. Would it be better if he did nothing, regardless of what the yacht owner would pay? The implication that it is &#8220;morally reprehensible&#8221; to charge him for rescue is that it is less morally reprehensible to let him drown by doing nothing. </p>
<p>Now, you could argue that Joe <i>should</i> just toss him the life-saver. But &#8220;should&#8221; doesn&#8217;t help us. We need to deal with the given reality, and the given reality is Joe is a jerk. </p>
<p>In short: your moralizing does you nothing here. And were you to force it onto Joe, then a yachtsman would be dead rather than living.</p>
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<ol class="children">
<li id="comment-184432" class="comment odd alt depth-5">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn">Zachriel</cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184432">August 31st, 2017</a>
</time>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p><b>Jon Murphy</b>: <i>Morality in this conversation is irrelevant,</i></p>
<p>Morality is the whole point. </p>
<p><b>Jon Murphy</b>: <i>and it’s not even clear he’s being immoral. </i></p>
<p>The vast majority of people would find his ransoming the man&#8217;s life to be morally reprehensible. </p>
<p><b>Jon Murphy</b>: <i>The implication that it is “morally reprehensible” to charge him for rescue is that it is less morally reprehensible to let him drown by doing nothing. </i></p>
<p>Well, that&#8217;s just a matter of a negotiated price! </p>
<p><b>Jon Murphy</b>: <i>Now, you could argue that Joe </i>should<i> just toss him the life-saver. </i></p>
<p>Of course he should. </p>
<p><b>Jon Murphy</b>: <i>But “should” doesn’t help us. We need to deal with the given reality, and the given reality is Joe is a jerk. </i></p>
<p>Joe is just charging what the market will bear.</p>
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<li id="comment-184433" class="comment even depth-5">
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<cite class="fn"><a href='http://force4good.me' rel='external nofollow' class='url'>Jon Murphy</a></cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184433">August 31st, 2017</a>
</time>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p><i>Morality is the whole point.</i></p>
<p>No. This post is a positive discussion, not a normative one. You need to be far more careful in your reading.</p>
<p><i>The vast majority of people would find his ransoming the man’s life to be morally reprehensible.</i></p>
<p>If that were the case, then I&#8217;d contend the &#8220;vast majority of people&#8221; don&#8217;t know what the word &#8220;ransoming&#8221; means.</p>
<p>The rest of your responses to me are non-sequiturs and I don&#8217;t know how to respond, so I won&#8217;t.</p>
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<li id="comment-184435" class="comment odd alt depth-5">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn">Zachriel</cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184435">August 31st, 2017</a>
</time>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p>As the original post concerned price-gouging, and as the concept of price-gouging is based on people&#8217;s views of morality, then our comments are relevant. </p>
<p>Again, &#8220;Joe&#8221; was just charging what the market would bear. As Monty&#8217;s life was at stake, that would presumably be his entire wealth; but due to time-constraints and the problems entailed in an extended negotiation, &#8220;Joe&#8221; was going to settle for the yacht or dinghy.</p>
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<li id="comment-184438" class="comment even depth-5">
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<cite class="fn"><a href='http://force4good.me' rel='external nofollow' class='url'>Jon Murphy</a></cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184438">August 31st, 2017</a>
</time>
</div>
<div class="comment-content">
<p><i>and as the concept of price-gouging is based on people’s views of morality</i></p>
<p>No, it&#8217;s not. It&#8217;s a lot more complicated. </p>
<p>You don&#8217;t seem to understand the difference between normative and positive.</p>
<p><i>Again, “Joe” was just charging what the market would bear. As Monty’s life was at stake, that would presumably be his entire wealth</i></p>
<p>Why? No theoretical reason to think this (in fact, with a few small assumptions, one could argue that the highest amount Monty would be willing to pay is a penny). With the weakest assumptions possible, we&#8217;d assume that Monty would be willing to pay up to the point where he thinks his life is worth. If, for example, Monty is an old man and thinks his life is nearly over anyway, he may not be willing to pay Joe anything. If, on the other hand, Monty is young, then he may be willing to pay many millions. </p>
<p>Another thing you have to realize: this is an Ultimatum game. Joe is arguing from the weakened position here, because, if he negotiated too hard (charges too high a price or tries too hard to get a higher price), then he gets nothing (this is where my earlier comment about getting a penny comes in. If we assume strict homo economicus rationality, then Monty would only have to offer Joe a penny, and Joe, being made better off, would accept). </p>
<p>In short, like your other comments here, I simply don&#8217;t think you&#8217;ve thought this through too hard.</p>
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<li id="comment-184446" class="comment odd alt depth-5">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn">Zachriel</cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184446">August 31st, 2017</a>
</time>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p><b>Jon Murphy</b>: <i>If, for example, Monty is an old man and thinks his life is nearly over anyway, he may not be willing to pay Joe anything. </i></p>
<p>That&#8217;s funny. In the real world, most people would pay dearly for their lives, even when they are old.</p>
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<li id="comment-184449" class="comment even depth-5">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn"><a href='http://billsets@outdrs.net' rel='external nofollow' class='url'>Bill Setser</a></cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184449">August 31st, 2017</a>
</time>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p>Can we all just agree that property zoning sucks?</p>
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<li id="comment-184465" class="comment odd alt depth-5">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn"><a href='http://force4good.me' rel='external nofollow' class='url'>Jon Murphy</a></cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184465">August 31st, 2017</a>
</time>
</div>
<div class="comment-content">
<p><i> In the real world, most people would pay dearly for their lives, even when they are old.</i></p>
<p>In which case, he&#8217;d pay. But there&#8217;s no guarantee of that. And there&#8217;s no guarantee that, as you say, he&#8217;d be willing to pay his entire fortune.</p>
<p>If it were true that people would, willingly and always, pay their entire fortunes for their lives, then you&#8217;d see far more ransom demands than you do. Why isn&#8217;t it that Colombian or Mexican drug cartel kidnappers demand the entire fortunes of their kidnappees? They typically only demand a fraction (and not even a substantial fraction). Why is that?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s even a problem in the very story you try to tell. Why doesn&#8217;t Joe demand Monty&#8217;s entire fortune? He just makes a specific demand. So, your own example doesn;t support your contention (strange, that).</p>
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<li id="comment-184472" class="comment even depth-5">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn">Zachriel</cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184472">August 31st, 2017</a>
</time>
</div>
<div class="comment-content">
<p><b>Jon Murphy</b>: <i>But there’s no guarantee of that.</i></p>
<p>Perhaps not. Some people will drown. That&#8217;s the price of doing business, apparently. </p>
<p><b>Jon Murphy</b>: <i>Why isn’t it that Colombian or Mexican drug cartel kidnappers demand the entire fortunes of their kidnappees? </i></p>
<p>Typically because the hostage is not the one with the money, and there may be avenues of recovery short of paying the ransom. </p>
<p><b>Jon Murphy</b>: <i>It’s even a problem in the very story you try to tell. Why doesn’t Joe demand Monty’s entire fortune? </i></p>
<p>We addressed that. There&#8217;s not a lot of time for an extended negotiation. </p>
<p>In any case, no court in the modern world would enforce such a contract.</p>
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<li id="comment-184474" class="comment odd alt depth-5">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn"><a href='http://force4good.me' rel='external nofollow' class='url'>Jon Murphy</a></cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184474">August 31st, 2017</a>
</time>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p><i>There’s not a lot of time for an extended negotiation.</i></p>
<p>Exactly our point, and why your reductio does not hold, and why your claims here are incorrect.</p>
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<li id="comment-184476" class="comment even depth-5">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn">Zachriel</cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184476">August 31st, 2017</a>
</time>
</div>
<div class="comment-content">
<p><b>Jon Murphy</b>: <i>Exactly our point, and why your reductio does not hold, and why your claims here are incorrect.</i></p>
<p>Just to be clear, are you saying that it was a valid contract, and that the courts should enforce the contract?</p>
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<li id="comment-184489" class="comment odd alt depth-5">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn"><a href='http://force4good.me' rel='external nofollow' class='url'>Jon Murphy</a></cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184489">August 31st, 2017</a>
</time>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p>Irrelevant. Stick to the matter at hand.</p>
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<li id="comment-184428" class="comment even depth-2">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn">Zachriel</cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184428">August 31st, 2017</a>
</time>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p>To extend the analogy somewhat, &#8220;Joe&#8221; was just an ordinary bloke, more than happy to help his neighbors, mows the lawn for the old lady down the street for free, donates to the food drive for the poor. </p>
<p>He was excited that he became friends with Monty deRiche, and that he was invited onto his yacht. As they ply the waters of the bay, Monty regales him with the virtues of libertarianism, how free markets explain and solve everything, and that he&#8217;s a sap for not charging the old lady for mowing her lawn. Now &#8220;Joe&#8221; is starting to feel like a sap. </p>
<p>Then &#8220;splash&#8221;.</p>
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<li id="comment-184482" class="comment odd alt depth-2">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn">Jeremy D.</cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184482">August 31st, 2017</a>
</time>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p>I have a question for Joe B. and zachriel.<br />
How do either of you justify paying doctors, nurses, police, EMTs, and firefighters? Why is it ok for them to profit from others misfortune but not &#8220;price gougers&#8221;?</p>
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<li id="comment-184501" class="comment even depth-2">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn">Jeremy D.</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-1">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184501">September 1st, 2017</a>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p>Question Joe B. and Zachriel. Why is it OK for ER doctors, EMTs etc. to charge for their services but not &#8220;price gougers&#8221;?</p>
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<li id="comment-184434" class="comment odd alt thread-odd thread-alt depth-1">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn">Not Sure</cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184434">August 31st, 2017</a>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p><i>&#8220;As they ply the waters of the bay, Monty regales him with the virtues of libertarianism, how free markets explain and solve everything, and that he’s a sap for not charging the old lady for mowing her lawn. &#8220;</i></p>
<p>Shorter version- Monty doesn&#8217;t understand libertarianism.</p>
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<li id="comment-184439" class="comment even depth-2">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn"><a href='http://force4good.me' rel='external nofollow' class='url'>Jon Murphy</a></cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184439">August 31st, 2017</a>
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<p>Not Sure-</p>
<p>Zach doesn&#8217;t understand it, either.</p>
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<li id="comment-184443" class="comment odd alt depth-3">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn">Ron H.</cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184443">August 31st, 2017</a>
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<p>Obviously</p>
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<li id="comment-184447" class="comment even depth-2">
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<cite class="fn">Zachriel</cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184447">August 31st, 2017</a>
</time>
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 <div class="comment-content">
<p><b>Not Sure</b>: <i>Monty doesn’t understand libertarianism.</i></p>
<p>There are many varieties of libertarianism. Monty, like many libertarians, uses it to justify his acting poorly towards his fellow human beings. </p>
<p>By the way, instead of just saying Monty doesn&#8217;t understand, this is where you explain why he doesn&#8217;t understand. Otherwise, it&#8217;s just handwaving.</p>
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<li id="comment-184452" class="comment odd alt depth-3">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn">Not Sure</cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184452">August 31st, 2017</a>
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<p><i>&#8220;There are many varieties of libertarianism.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>I&#8217;ve never seen one that claimed a person is a sap for not charging an old lady for mowing her lawn. Have you?</p>
<p><i>&#8220;this is where you explain why he doesn’t understand.:</i></p>
<p>How would I know why he doesn&#8217;t understand?</p>
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<li id="comment-184475" class="comment even depth-4">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn">Zachriel</cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184475">August 31st, 2017</a>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p><b>Not Sure</b>: <i>I’ve never seen one that claimed a person is a sap for not charging an old lady for mowing her lawn. Have you?</i></p>
<p>Many times. There&#8217;s a recent case of someone who says he wouldn&#8217;t use his boat to help people stranded in Houston, even though he has the means, unless it was profitable to do so. </p>
<p><b>Not Sure</b>: <i>How would I know why he doesn’t understand? </i></p>
<p>It usually involves a discussion of how his views vary from your own conception of libertarianism. Just saying &#8220;He&#8217;s wrong!&#8221; is not particularly informative, even if you repeat yourself.</p>
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<li id="comment-184488" class="comment odd alt depth-5">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn"><a href='http://force4good.me' rel='external nofollow' class='url'>Jon Murphy</a></cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184488">August 31st, 2017</a>
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<p><i>Many times. </i></p>
<p>Citation, please</p>
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<li id="comment-184514" class="comment even depth-5">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn">Not Sure</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-1">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184514">September 1st, 2017</a>
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<p><i>&#8220;It usually involves a discussion of how his views vary from your own conception of libertarianism.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>How his views vary? That&#8217;s not what you said before. Your original comment was regarding why he didn&#8217;t understand. As a reminder:</p>
<p><i>&#8220;By the way, instead of just saying Monty doesn’t understand, this is where you explain why he doesn’t understand.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>As previously noted, there&#8217;s really no way for me to know why someone else doesn&#8217;t understand something.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;Just saying “He’s wrong!” is not particularly informative, even if you repeat yourself.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Like just saying &#8220;Many times&#8221; when asked if you have seen anyone who claimed a person is a sap for not charging an old lady for mowing her lawn, but not providing even one example?</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re going to criticize someone else&#8217;s comments as &#8220;not particularly informative&#8221; for not including a discussion on the topic, you might want to consider not doing the same thing with your comments. Just a thought&#8230;</p>
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<li id="comment-184497" class="comment odd alt depth-3">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn">Ron H.</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-1">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184497">September 1st, 2017</a>
</time>
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<p>Z:</p>
<p>&#8220;<i>There are many varieties of libertarianism. Monty, like many libertarians, uses it to justify his acting poorly towards his fellow human beings.</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>Jon is correct that you don&#8217;t understand libertarianism. It would be more typical of a libertarian to offer to help someone in need than someone who assumes, as you do, that government is the best source of help for those in need. Libertarians tend to have low levels of confidence in government. </p>
<p>If nothing else, we could say about Monty that no matter what he chooses to call himself, he certainly isn&#8217;t a libertarian in the commonly used sense of the word. </p>
<p>&#8220;<i> There’s a recent case of someone who says he wouldn’t use his boat to help people stranded in Houston, even though he has the means, unless it was profitable to do so.</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>Why would you assume that person is a libertarian?</p>
<p>&#8220;<i> Monty doesn’t understand libertarianism.</i>&#8221; [you quoting Not Sure]</p>
<p>It&#8217;s possible that Monty, like you, doesn&#8217;t understand libertarianism because of his &#8211; and your &#8211; gross mischartacterization of their attitudes toward their fellow human beings.</p>
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<li id="comment-184436" class="comment even thread-even depth-1">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn">Zachriel</cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184436">August 31st, 2017</a>
</time>
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<p><b>Not Sure</b>: <i>Monty doesn’t understand libertarianism.</i></p>
<p>&#8220;Joe&#8221; walked away with a $5 million yacht. Perhaps you think he should have asked for more?</p>
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<li id="comment-184440" class="comment odd alt depth-2">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn">Not Sure</cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184440">August 31st, 2017</a>
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<p>??? What&#8217;s that got to do with the misinformation Monty gave Joe?</p>
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<cite class="fn"><a href='http://force4good.me' rel='external nofollow' class='url'>Jon Murphy</a></cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184444">August 31st, 2017</a>
</time>
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<p>Money seems to be suffering under a caricature of libertarian thought.</p>
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<cite class="fn"><a href='http://force4good.me' rel='external nofollow' class='url'>Jon Murphy</a></cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184445">August 31st, 2017</a>
</time>
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<p>That should say &#8220;Monty&#8221; not &#8220;Money&#8221;</p>
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<cite class="fn">Warren Platts</cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184450">August 31st, 2017</a>
</time>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p>Not surprising that Venn Diagram II was inspired by Jon Murphy, as it&#8217;s a classic straw man argument. In reality, the two situations are not analogous at all.</p>
<p>In Houston, there is a genuine dearth of goods; in the USA as a whole, there is a surfeit of goods. In the former, people are in genuine need; in the latter, the nation as a whole is living beyond its means by consuming more than it produces. In Houston, repairing the damage is going to boost GDP; in the USA as a whole, the excess of consumption and shortage of savings is a drag on GDP.</p>
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<cite class="fn">Joe B.</cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184483">August 31st, 2017</a>
</time>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p>Jon Murphy argues well. </p>
<p>I am a free marketeer. As I say, no property zoning, no minimum wage, no federal flood insurance, no VA, etc.</p>
<p>Yet, at times I am haunted by the ideology behind free markets and libertarianism.</p>
<p>I have children. I would hope that when my children are out and about in the world, that every adult regards themselves as responsible for my children&#8217;s safety, as I do with theirs. That is, if I see a child in a dangerous situation, I immediately respond. It is my responsibility to do so. I believe that. </p>
<p>The libertarian says I have no responsibility to a child in danger. </p>
<p>In the end, this would lead to a society that would not function, if everyone truly followed libertarian ideals to the extreme. </p>
<p>It may be libertarianism, in the final analysis, is a fraud, an faux screwball ideology foisted on the interwebs to give a fig leaf to rash greed and selfishness. </p>
<p>It is an interesting topic.</p>
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<cite class="fn"><a href='http://force4good.me' rel='external nofollow' class='url'>Jon Murphy</a></cite> <time datetime="2017-08-31">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184487">August 31st, 2017</a>
</time>
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<p><i>The libertarian says I have no responsibility to a child in danger.</i></p>
<p>I have no knowledge of any libertarian who says that. Please provide citations</p>
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<li id="comment-184515" class="comment odd alt thread-odd thread-alt depth-1">
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<cite class="fn">Zachriel</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-1">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184515">September 1st, 2017</a>
</time>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p><b>Ron H</b>: <i>“Everyone” should force their moral values on Joe? </i></p>
<p>In fact, society would find it morally reprehensible if Joe threatened to let Monty drown. </p>
<p><b>Ron H</b>: <i>Thank goodness it’s not your judgement that matters here, but that of the parties involved.</i></p>
<p>Turns out that society is also involved in the way of courts, and no modern court would enforce such a contract. </p>
<p>Suffice it to say that you exemplify why such extreme libertarianism never gains traction among most people. </p>
<p><b>Jeremy D</b>: <i>Why is it OK for ER doctors, EMTs etc. to charge for their services but not “price gougers”?</i></p>
<p>You seem to think we are against markets. That is far from the truth of the matter. Rather, it would be morally and ethically wrong for an EMT to go to a person&#8217;s home and threaten to withhold lifesaving treatment for a heart attack, where time is of the essence, in order to suddenly strong-arm the person out of their home. </p>
<p><b>Ron H</b>: <i>If nothing else, we could say about Monty that no matter what he chooses to call himself, he certainly isn’t a libertarian in the commonly used sense of the word. </i></p>
<p>Certainly, not all libertarians are selfish, but libertarianism often attracts selfish people (along with kooks) as it offers a justification for their behavior. </p>
<p><b>Jon Murphy</b>: <i>I have no knowledge of any libertarian who says that. </i></p>
<p>Why, sure! In a situation where simply throwing someone a lifesaver at no risk to himself, and he doesn&#8217;t without first trying to negotiate a price in the millions of dollars, Jon Murphy responds &#8220;Ok?&#8221;, indicating that he doesn&#8217;t see the problem with this. In other words, Jon Murphy doesn&#8217;t recognize a responsibility to immediately render aid to someone in distress even when that aid entails no risk or effort.</p>
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<cite class="fn"><a href='http://force4good.me' rel='external nofollow' class='url'>Jon Murphy</a></cite> <time datetime="2017-09-1">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184528">September 1st, 2017</a>
</time>
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<p><i> Jon Murphy responds “Ok?”, indicating that he doesn’t see the problem with this. In other words, Jon Murphy doesn’t recognize a responsibility to immediately render aid to someone in distress even when that aid entails no risk or effort.</i></p>
<p>Wow. That&#8217;s a lot of assumptions you pulled out of two letters. There&#8217;s an awful lot of confirmation bias here.</p>
<p>I, of course, said nothing of what you say I did, nor did my one two-letter world imply any of this nonsense. Rather, as others who replied to me understood, it was confusion as to what, exactly, Joe&#8217;s point was.</p>
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<cite class="fn">Zachriel</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-1">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184539">September 1st, 2017</a>
</time>
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<p><b>Jon Murphy</b>: <i>I, of course, said nothing of what you say I did, nor did my one two-letter world imply any of this nonsense. Rather, as others who replied to me understood, it was confusion as to what, exactly, Joe’s point was.</i></p>
<p>It was a very straightforward scenario, so the point was rather obviously. However, we&#8217;ll ask it directly. Does &#8220;Joe&#8221; have a responsibility to help Monty?</p>
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<cite class="fn">Ron H.</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-1">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184555">September 1st, 2017</a>
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<p>Z:</p>
<p>&#8220;<i> However, we’ll ask it directly. Does “Joe” have a responsibility to help Monty?</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>No. Unless Joe is responsible for Monty&#8217;s unfortunate condition he has no ethical responsibility to take positive action to save Monty. </p>
<p>However &#8211; and here we may lose you &#8211; as a human being Joe is genetically hardwired by his nature to act to help others who are in trouble. For most of us this is purely instinctive and requires little thought beyond some rough calculation of the physical risk to ourselves, and sometimes even that is ignored.</p>
<p>It is that instinctive generosity and compassion that makes us who we are, and ensures that in most cases those in need will be cared for by others. Hopefully that&#8217;s not too much nuance.</p>
<p>The notion that people must be forced to help others is laughable.</p>
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<cite class="fn">Not Sure</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-3">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184625">September 3rd, 2017</a>
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<p><i>&#8220;The notion that people must be forced to help others is laughable.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Not to people like Z, apparently.</p>
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<cite class="fn">Ron H.</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-3">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184666">September 3rd, 2017</a>
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<p>Not</p>
<p>&#8220;<i>Not to people like Z, apparently.</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>Some people actually believe that someone must be &#8220;in charge&#8221; of others, or they won&#8217;t do the &#8220;right things&#8221;.</p>
<p>These people seem to fall into two groups: </p>
<p> &#8211; One group includes people like Z who believe only really smart people like themselves know what&#8217;s best for everyone, and therefore they must force their choices on everyone, while pretending that it&#8217;s &#8220;society&#8221; that is making the choices. What Hayek called &#8220;the Pretense of Knowledge&#8221;</p>
<p> &#8211; The other group consists of people who seem to lack confidence in their own ability to manage their own lives, and therefore believe they need someone to tell them what to do.</p>
<p>People who think too much of themselves and people who think too little.</p>
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<cite class="fn"><a href='http://force4good.me' rel='external nofollow' class='url'>Jon Murphy</a></cite> <time datetime="2017-09-1">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184554">September 1st, 2017</a>
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<p><i>It was a very straightforward scenario, so the point was rather obviously. However, we’ll ask it directly. Does “Joe” have a responsibility to help Monty? </i></p>
<p>Hm&#8230;not sure how you got that from his comment. Cite specifically where you got that, especially in light of Joe&#8217;s follow up comments</p>
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<cite class="fn">Jeremy D.</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-1">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184532">September 1st, 2017</a>
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<p>Two more questions.</p>
<p>1. Considering there is almost always some in need of an EMT is immoral for him not to show up to work because of a pay dispute?</p>
<p>2. If homeless person asks you for some food should you be required to give them some?</p>
<p>I ask these questions to find the moral bounds. Just what is the proximity in time and space to someone in need does someone else need to be before they can charge for their services?</p>
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<cite class="fn">Zachriel</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-1">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184540">September 1st, 2017</a>
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<p><b>Jeremy D</b>: <i>1. Considering there is almost always some in need of an EMT is immoral for him not to show up to work because of a pay dispute?</i></p>
<p>There are typically other options available, and it&#8217;s not taking advantage of someone in an emergency situation. </p>
<p>Surely you see the difference between an EMT charging for services at the going rate, compared to showing up then suddenly demanding a deed to your house before they&#8217;ll save your child&#8217;s life? It&#8217;s the difference between Marcus Welby and Snidely Whiplash. </p>
<p><b>Jeremy D</b>: <i>2. If homeless person asks you for some food should you be required to give them some? </i></p>
<p>Not as an individual; however, society may decide to provide some sort of safety net.</p>
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<cite class="fn">Ron H.</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-1">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184550">September 1st, 2017</a>
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<p>Z:</p>
<p>&#8220;<i>Not as an individual; however, society may decide to provide some sort of safety net.</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>Now wait! If we aren&#8217;t required to give food to a homeless person who asks for it, why are we obligated to help people who falls overboard? Surely society has provided some sort of safety net to save people from such unfortunate events.</p>
<p>Are there degrees of urgency that we must determine for ourselves and then act according to our subjective judgement of that urgency?</p>
<p>Societies don&#8217;t decide things &#8211; individuals decide things. Like minded individuals as members of a group may pool their individual decisions and take group action, but it is still individuals taking the action, and individuals who are responsible for the action.</p>
<p>A libertarian would say that those folks are free to decide anything they wish and act in any way they wish as long as it doesn&#8217;t violate the similar rights others have to decide for themselves. That would preclude members of that group taking money from our pockets without our consent to further their goal of providing a social safety net for homeless people.</p>
<p>Notice that we decided to speak for other libertarians in this instance, although we usually refrain from pretending to have the authority to speak for others. In this discussion it seems to be acceptable for commenters to offer pronouncements on who is or isn&#8217;t a libertarian, and what a libertarian might or might not believe, or what a libertarian might or might not do or say. We are all <strike>Keynesians</strike> pretentious blowhards now.</p>
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<cite class="fn">Ron H.</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-1">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184556">September 1st, 2017</a>
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<p>Z:</p>
<p>[EMT on strike] &#8220;<i>There are typically other options available, and it’s not taking advantage of someone in an emergency situation. </i>&#8221;</p>
<p>Obviously a single EMT on strike has little effect. May we assume that Mr. EMT&#8217;s entire department is out on strike?</p>
<p>The purpose of a strike is to harm an employer and the employers customers to an extent that they give in to the demands of the strikers. If there are other options and if there is no harm to anyone in an emergency situation, then the strike has been pointless. Perhaps those on strike aren&#8217;t needed after all. You might want to reconsider the original question.</p>
<p>If someone dies waiting for emergency services that are slow to arrive due to low availability of EMTs, do those on strike share some of the responsibility?</p>
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<cite class="fn">Ron H.</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-1">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184542">September 1st, 2017</a>
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<p>Z:</p>
<p>&#8220;<i>Turns out that society is also involved in the way of courts, and no modern court would enforce such a contract. </i>&#8221;</p>
<p>We agree that no court is likely to enforce a contract entered into under duress, but you are assuming that Monty is a liar and dishonest and would renege on his agreement so that it became necessary to involve the courts.</p>
<p>&#8220;<i>Certainly, not all libertarians are selfish, but libertarianism often attracts selfish people (along with kooks) as it offers a justification for their behavior. </i>&#8221;</p>
<p>You seem to have missed our point that people are free to call themselves whatever they wish, but that doesn&#8217;t mean they are that thing. Calling a cat a dog doesn&#8217;t make it so.</p>
<p>And you continue to mischaracterize libertarians. You might want to clear up your misunderstanding before further comments on the subject. Your initial error is assuming that Joe and Monty are libertarians. Your narratives then propagate that error through all of your comments. </p>
<p>And you also seem to be using the word &#8220;selfish&#8221; in an unusual way. Everyone is selfish, in that they act to promote their own self interest. That&#8217;s not a bad thing, and in fact has helped to ensure the survival of the species. Absent theft or coercion, promoting one&#8217;s own self interest generally requires serving others so that exchanges produce mutual benefit.</p>
<p>So yes, all libertarians, like everyone else, are selfish. Perhaps you had a different word in mind.</p>
<p>If you truly believe that people have an absolute obligation to help others, then perhaps you can explain why it&#8217;s so often necessary, as it seems to be in your view, to threaten people with violence to get therm to fulfill that obligation.</p>
<p>Come to think of it, we&#8217;re not sure that someone who regularly advocates coercion and theft as you do, is in any moral position to condemn those you see as opportunistic. Hello, Pot? Meet Kettle.</p>
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<cite class="fn">Citizen Buddy</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-1">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184548">September 1st, 2017</a>
</time>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p>Ron correctly writes <i>&#8220;We agree that no court is likely to enforce a contract entered into under duress&#8221;</i></p>
<p>We have achieved Bingo and our contestant Joe B walks off the plank.</p>
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<cite class="fn">Ron H.</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-1">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184551">September 1st, 2017</a>
</time>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p>🙂</p>
</div>
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<cite class="fn">Joe B.</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-3">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184627">September 3rd, 2017</a>
</time>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p>I am near death from thirst. </p>
<p>A hurricane has wiped out potable water. A man offers me drinking water, at $100 a bottle. I let him ring up my credit card.</p>
<p>Later, I halt the transaction with my credit card company, stating the transaction, the contract to pay, was made under duress.</p>
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<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn">Zachriel</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-1">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184519">September 1st, 2017</a>
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<div class="comment-content">
<blockquote><p>The first ever Roman fire brigade of which we have any substantial history was created by Marcus Licinius Crassus. Marcus Licinius Crassus was born into a wealthy Roman family around the year 115 BC, and acquired an enormous fortune through (in the words of Plutarch) &#8220;fire and rapine.&#8221; One of his most lucrative schemes took advantage of the fact that Rome had no fire department. Crassus filled this void by creating his own brigade—500 men strong—which rushed to burning buildings at the first cry of alarm. Upon arriving at the scene, however, the fire fighters did nothing while their employer bargained over the price of their services with the distressed property owner. If Crassus could not negotiate a satisfactory price, his men simply let the structure burn to the ground, after which he offered to purchase it for a fraction of its value.</p></blockquote>
<p>Compare to <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Fire_Company" rel="nofollow">Benjamin Franklin&#8217;s Bucket Brigade</a>.</p>
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<cite class="fn">Ron H.</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-1">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184543">September 1st, 2017</a>
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<p>Ahh. That old Crassus story once again.</p>
<p>You would think that such a lucrative business opportunity would have attracted many competing fire services. Did Crassus have a government granted monopoly on fire services? If so, that would explain a lot.</p>
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<cite class="fn">Zachriel</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-2">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184578">September 2nd, 2017</a>
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<p><b>Crassus</b>: <i>Did Crassus have a government granted monopoly on fire services?</i></p>
<p>It was more akin to the biggest mob on the street. Somehow or other, his enemies tended to have more fires.</p>
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<cite class="fn">Ron H.</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-2">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184603">September 2nd, 2017</a>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p>Z:</p>
<p>&#8220;<i>It was more akin to the biggest mob on the street. </i>&#8221;</p>
<p>Which is exactly why we reject mob rule a.k.a. majority rule as a legitimate system of governance.</p>
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<cite class="fn">Zachriel</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-3">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184640">September 3rd, 2017</a>
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<p>Ron H: <i>Which is exactly why we reject mob rule a.k.a. majority rule as a legitimate system of governance.</i></p>
<p>Modern democracies are hardly mob rule, but are a complex distribution of power at many levels in society.</p>
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<cite class="fn">Ron H.</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-3">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184668">September 3rd, 2017</a>
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<p>Z:</p>
<p>A rose by any other name &#8230;</p>
<p>While holding people&#8217;s burning houses hostage might not be acceptable these days, government granted monopolies are still a very common feature</p>
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<cite class="fn">Zachriel</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-4">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184678">September 4th, 2017</a>
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<p><b>Ron H</b>: <i>A rose by any other name …</i></p>
<p>The distribution of power in modern democracies is quite different from a pure democracy or from a ochlocracy. </p>
<p><b>Ron H</b>: <i>government granted monopolies are still a very common feature</i></p>
<p>With definitive decisions enforced by lawful means being the most salient example.</p>
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<cite class="fn"><a href='http://force4good.me' rel='external nofollow' class='url'>Jon Murphy</a></cite> <time datetime="2017-09-2">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184582">September 2nd, 2017</a>
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<p>The Crassus story is far more complicated that Zach here makes it out to be. Ron is right: he had essentially a government-protected monopoly on fire fighting granted to him by Sulla. Sulla, by virtue of his power as dictator of Rome, issued &#8220;proscriptions,&#8221; basically orders appropriating to him (and his cronies like Crassus) the property of those who opposed him. Crassus was more of an enforcer for Sulla, then what Zach&#8217;s telling would indicate. (Check out Plutarch&#8217;s history. Good stuff. That said, it should be taken with a grain of sale. Plutarch was known to take&#8230;liberties).</p>
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<cite class="fn">Zachriel</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-2">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184585">September 2nd, 2017</a>
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<p><b>Jon Murphy</b>: <i> Sulla, by virtue of his power as dictator of Rome, issued “proscriptions,” basically orders appropriating to him (and his cronies like Crassus) the property of those who opposed him.</i></p>
<p>According to Plutarch, Crassus&#8217;s fire department was his own entrepreneurship, and not a government monopoly, nor was it directly related to Sulla&#8217;s proscriptions and public confiscations.</p>
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<cite class="fn"><a href='http://force4good.me' rel='external nofollow' class='url'>Jon Murphy</a></cite> <time datetime="2017-09-2">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184587">September 2nd, 2017</a>
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<p>Your translation of Plutarch must be radically different from mine.</p>
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<cite class="fn">Ron H.</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-3">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184634">September 3rd, 2017</a>
</time>
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<p>Z:</p>
<p>&#8220;<i>According to Plutarch, Crassus’s fire department was his own entrepreneurship, and not a government monopoly &#8230;</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>The two aren&#8217;t mutually exclusive. Governments create private monopolies all the time.</p>
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<cite class="fn">Zachriel</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-3">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184641">September 3rd, 2017</a>
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<p><b>Jon Murphy</b>: <i>Your translation of Plutarch must be radically different from mine. </i></p>
<p>Loeb translation: &#8220;For when Sulla took the city and sold the property of those whom he had put to death, considering it and calling it spoil of war, and wishing to defile with his crime as many and as influential men as he could, Crassus was never tired of accepting or of buying it. And <b>besides this</b>, observing how natural and familiar at Rome were such fatalities as the conflagration and collapse of buildings, owing to their being too massive and close together, he proceeded to buy slaves who were architects and builders. Then, when he had over five hundred of these, he would buy houses that were afire, and houses which adjoined those that were afire, and these their owners would let go at a trifling price owing to their fear and uncertainty. In this way the largest part of Rome came into his possession.&#8221;</p>
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<li id="comment-184523" class="comment even thread-odd thread-alt depth-1">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn">Zachriel</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-1">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184523">September 1st, 2017</a>
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<p><b>Not Sure</b>: <i>How his views vary?</i></p>
<p>Yes, that would be the relevant point, which you continue to sidestep with your semantic confusion over &#8220;why&#8221;. When someone asks &#8220;Why do you disagree?&#8221; it means they are asking about your views, not about your psychology. </p>
<p><b>Not Sure</b>: <i>“Many times” when asked if you have seen anyone who claimed a person is a sap for not charging an old lady for mowing her lawn, but not providing even one example?</i></p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a recent example: </p>
<blockquote><p><a href="http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2017/08/price-gouging-laws-allocating-goods-in-an-emergency-to-people-who-have-nothing-much-valuable-to-do.html#comment-3495615610" rel="nofollow">marque2</a>: <i>If I could charge $100 a head to save people, I might be willing to drive my flat bottom boat all the way from Oklahoma City to Houston, and thereby increase the supply of rescue vehicles. If I have to do it for free, why bother?</i></p></blockquote>
<p>It&#8217;s a very common position, especially among free-market libertarians and those of similar persuasion. They say that government shouldn&#8217;t force people to do anything, but when push comes to shove, most simply have no sense of community.</p>
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<cite class="fn"><a href='http://force4good.me' rel='external nofollow' class='url'>Jon Murphy</a></cite> <time datetime="2017-09-1">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184527">September 1st, 2017</a>
</time>
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<p>Marquee2 is not a libertarian. Nor is he a libertarian thinker, writer, philosopher. He is a poor example to cite.</p>
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<cite class="fn">Zachriel</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-1">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184538">September 1st, 2017</a>
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<p><b>Jon Murphy</b>: <i>Marquee2 is not a libertarian. </i></p>
<p>Ah, he&#8217;s not a True Libertarian™.</p>
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<cite class="fn">Ron H.</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-1">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184544">September 1st, 2017</a>
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<p>Your expansive definition makes the word &#8220;libertarian&#8221; meaningless. Perhaps you need a different word.</p>
<p>&#8220;I know many people like coffee. If I could charge $3/cup I would open a shop and do so, but if I have to do it for free, why bother?</p>
<p>Are you now going to discuss relative levels of need and suggest who should be authorized to judge those levels of need for other people and at what level individual self interest should be cast aside in favor of altruism?</p>
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<cite class="fn">Zachriel</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-1">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184545">September 1st, 2017</a>
</time>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p><b>Ron H</b>: <i>Your expansive definition makes the word “libertarian” meaningless. </i></p>
<p>Libertarianism encompasses a wide variety of different viewpoints, and includes people on the political left and on the political right. However, most libertarians tend to be free-market libertarians, and as noted, when push comes to shove, most of these simply have no sense of community.</p>
<p><b>Ron H</b>: <i>“I know many people like coffee. If I could charge $3/cup I would open a shop and do so, but if I have to do it for free, why bother? </i></p>
<p>There&#8217;s a difference between your scenario and the Joe and Monty scenario given above. Perhaps, if you consider it carefully, you might be able to see the difference for yourself.</p>
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<cite class="fn"><a href='http://force4good.me' rel='external nofollow' class='url'>Jon Murphy</a></cite> <time datetime="2017-09-1">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184553">September 1st, 2017</a>
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<p><i>However, most libertarians tend to be free-market libertarians, and as noted, when push comes to shove, most of these simply have no sense of community.</i></p>
<p>Still waiting for you to cite an actual libertarian writer, thinker, philosopher on this point.</p>
<p>Next, you&#8217;ll quote Hitler and claim that libertarians hate Jews.</p>
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<li id="comment-184552" class="comment even depth-2">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn">Ron H.</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-1">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184552">September 1st, 2017</a>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p>Z: </p>
<p>&#8220;<i>They say that government shouldn’t force people to do anything, but when push comes to shove, most simply have no sense of community.</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s just silly. Most libertarians have a well developed sense of community, they just don&#8217;t believe they should force others, nor should they themselves be forced, to act in ways they haven&#8217;t freely chosen to act.</p>
<p>In fact, libertarians are more likely than collectivists to be sympathetic to the needs of others as they don&#8217;t have a lot of faith in government safety nets to distribute stolen property efficiently or effectively. And unlike collectivists, they don&#8217;t pretend their obligations to others has been discharged by faceless government bureaucracies using their monopoly on the use of force to reallocate resources. We can&#8217;t recall hearing a libertarian explaining their lack of generosity with the lame excuse: &#8220;Oh, I already gave at the office.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;<i>There’s a difference between your scenario and the Joe and Monty scenario given above.</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes, there certainly is, but we were paraphrasing your marque2 quote above. You apparently missed the similarity.</p>
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<li id="comment-184584" class="comment odd alt thread-even depth-1">
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<cite class="fn">Zachriel</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-2">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184584">September 2nd, 2017</a>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p><b>Ron H</b>: <i>If you truly believe that people have an absolute obligation to help others &#8230;</i></p>
<p>At no point did we say there was an absolute obligation. However, a specific example was provided where most people would say there is a responsibility to act. </p>
<p>Libertarians and their defenders on this thread have a great deal of difficulty with this concept, a concept of community that is shared by the vast majority of humankind. </p>
<p><b>Ron H</b>: <i>If we aren’t required to give food to a homeless person who asks for it, why are we obligated to help people who falls overboard? </i></p>
<p>It&#8217;s a question of means and ability. The best means to help the homeless involves social institutions. The best means of helping Monty is to throw him a lifesaver. </p>
<p><b>Ron H</b>: <i>Societies don’t decide things – individuals decide things. </i></p>
<p>Actually, societies have various mechanisms for collective decision-making. </p>
<p><b>Ron H</b>: <i>May we assume that Mr. EMT’s entire department is out on strike? </i></p>
<p>And when that happens, there is a balance that needs to be struck for necessity of providing emergency services and whatever other issues are involved. This is the sort of balance actual groups of people try to make every day, something that eludes those who think in simple abstractions. </p>
<p><b>Ron H</b>: <i>And you continue to mischaracterize libertarians. </i></p>
<p>Libertarians are a diverse group, but generally agree that the least possible government is best, and are skeptical of government generally. But when push comes to shove, most simply have no sense of community.</p>
<p><b>Ron H</b>: <i>We agree that no court is likely to enforce a contract entered into under duress, but you are assuming that Monty is a liar and dishonest and would renege on his agreement so that it became necessary to involve the courts.</i></p>
<p>The courts, and most people, would say there was no valid contract. Monty is a libertarian, not an anarchist. He would almost certainly go to court. </p>
<p><b>Ron H</b>: <i>Your initial error is assuming that Joe and Monty are libertarians. </i></p>
<p>No. Monty&#8217;s a professed libertarian. Joe is an average bloke who saw an opportunity inspired by his conversation with Monty. </p>
<p><b>Ron H</b>: <i>Most libertarians have a well developed sense of community</i></p>
<p>Does “Joe” have a responsibility to help Monty?</p>
<p><b>Jon Murphy</b>: <i>Still waiting for you to cite an actual libertarian writer, thinker, philosopher on this point.</i></p>
<p>Zachriel: Does “Joe” have a responsibility to help Monty?</p>
<p>Jon Murphy: {blah, blah}</p>
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<cite class="fn"><a href='http://force4good.me' rel='external nofollow' class='url'>Jon Murphy</a></cite> <time datetime="2017-09-2">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184588">September 2nd, 2017</a>
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<p>Nice handwaving. Now, how about actually addressing the criticism raised?</p>
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<li id="comment-184593" class="comment odd alt depth-2">
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<cite class="fn"><a href='http://force4good.me' rel='external nofollow' class='url'>Jon Murphy</a></cite> <time datetime="2017-09-2">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184593">September 2nd, 2017</a>
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<p>Here&#8217;s the big issue with your comment Zach: you&#8217;re begging the question (ie, you&#8217;re assuming your own conclusion is correct, and then claiming it is correct). I doubt you realize you&#8217;re doing this because, frankly, I doubt you&#8217;ve thought too hard about this. Your whole argument comes off as ad hoc (but that&#8217;s neither here nor there).</p>
<p>Basically, you&#8217;re saying &#8220;I have Monty. Monty says X. I say Monty is a libertarian. Therefore, libertarians believe X.&#8221;</p>
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<li id="comment-184602" class="comment even depth-2">
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<cite class="fn">Ron H.</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-2">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184602">September 2nd, 2017</a>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p>Z:</p>
<p>You are becoming repetitious, apparently ignoring responses to your comments. Are you resorting to Automated Voice Response mode as you have done in the past?</p>
<p>We already own a parrot, so there&#8217;s no value to your responses unless they contain new information.</p>
<p>Specifically, we have previously addressed your question about Joe having a responsibility to Monty.</p>
<p>&#8220;<i>At no point did we say there was an absolute obligation. </i>&#8221;</p>
<p>Ahh. Much better. A conditional obligation. In which case our answer of &#8220;no&#8221; is correct.</p>
<p>So, who gets to decide what those conditions are? Not &#8220;society&#8221;, we&#8217;ve been over that. Try not to re-cover old ground. Is it Joe? Is it Monty? Is it you or some other uninvolved third parties?</p>
<p>And of course you are repeating yourself on the the &#8220;sense of community&#8221; issue. If repeating &#8220;Is Not!&#8221; is the best you can do, don&#8217;t expect to be taken seriously.</p>
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<li id="comment-184608" class="comment odd alt depth-2">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn">Ron H.</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-2">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184608">September 2nd, 2017</a>
</time>
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<div class="comment-content">
<p>Z:</p>
<p>&#8220;<i> The best means to help the homeless involves social institutions.</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>You say that as if you know what you&#8217;re talking about, but you&#8217;ve offered no evidence that that is actually true.</p>
<p>And of course if you mean that stealing money from strangers is the best method of caring for homeless people, then you&#8217;re just wrong, and you must have no idea what the words &#8220;compassion&#8217; and &#8220;generosity&#8221; actually mean. You cannot be compassionate with someone else&#8217;s money.</p>
<p>&#8220;<i>The courts, and most people, would say there was no valid contract. Monty is a libertarian, not an anarchist. He would almost certainly go to court.</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>You are confused. There is no valid contract, but we don&#8217;t ordinarily initiate court action to make that case. We wait until the other party goes to court hoping to enforce the contract, then we defend ourselves by showing there isn&#8217;t one.</p>
<p>In this case Monty will no doubt renege on his agreement, so it is Joe who would go to court, hoping to enforce the contract and collect his prize. Even if Joe (not Monty) were an anarchist he would STILL go to court, attempting to to enforce his contract.</p>
<p>You seem unfamiliar with the political philosophies you spend so much time discussing. </p>
<p>&#8220;<i>And when that happens, there is a balance that needs to be struck for necessity of providing emergency services and whatever other issues are involved.</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>Blah, blah, blah &#8230; a meaningless string of words.</p>
<p>People strike to cause pain for those who depend on them in order to force concessions. Pretending to withhold necessary services while continuing to provide those services isn&#8217;t a very convincing strategy.</p>
<p>&#8220;<i>This is the sort of balance actual groups of people try to make every day &#8230;</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>Do you really believe that auto workers on strike actually ensure that enough cars are made to supply the needs of buyers? What about nurses striking a hospital? Do they ensure that patients get adequate care nonetheless?</p>
<p>&#8216;We demand higher wages, but we won&#8217;t interfere with the functioning of this organization to an extent that anyone will notice.&#8221;</p>
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<li id="comment-184642" class="comment even thread-odd thread-alt depth-1">
<div class="comment-header">
<cite class="fn">Zachriel</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-3">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184642">September 3rd, 2017</a>
</time>
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<p>Zachriel: Does “Joe” have a responsibility to help Monty?</p>
<p>Jon Murphy: {blah, blah}</p>
<p><b>Ron H</b>: <i>So, who gets to decide what those conditions are? Not “society”, we’ve been over that. </i></p>
<p>Society does have an interest, typically expressed through courts and the rule of law, such as those laws governing contracts.</p>
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<cite class="fn">Zachriel</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-3">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184643">September 3rd, 2017</a>
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<p><b>Ron H</b>: <i>What about nurses striking a hospital? Do they ensure that patients get adequate care nonetheless?</i></p>
<p>For instance, <a href="http://www.massnurses.org/news-and-events/p/openItem/10433" rel="nofollow">in Boston</a>, the Massachusetts Nurses Association says they went on strike &#8220;for the health and safety of our patients, for the futures of our newest nurses, and for the security of Tufts RNs, overall we needed to take this next step.”</p>
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<cite class="fn">Ron H.</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-3">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184669">September 3rd, 2017</a>
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<p>Z:</p>
<p>&#8220;<i> &#8230; they went on strike “for the health and safety of our patients&#8221; &#8230;</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8230; must mean that patients are in some amount of danger when being treated by these nurses, and safer when left alone.</p>
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<cite class="fn">Zachriel</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-3">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184646">September 3rd, 2017</a>
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<p><b>Ron H</b>: <i>Blah, blah, blah … a meaningless string of words. </i></p>
<p>Pointing out that there are competing demands and that sometimes a balance must be struck between these demands is hardly meaningless. It&#8217;s something people and organizations do every day.</p>
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<li id="comment-184663" class="comment even depth-2">
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<cite class="fn"><a href='http://force4good.me' rel='external nofollow' class='url'>Jon Murphy</a></cite> <time datetime="2017-09-3">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184663">September 3rd, 2017</a>
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<p><i>Pointing out that there are competing demands and that sometimes a balance must be struck between these demands is hardly meaningless. It’s something people and organizations do every day.</i></p>
<p>Yes. It&#8217;s called &#8220;economics.&#8221; All of which makes your comments even stranger now, as implicit in all of them is ignoring what you&#8217;ve written here. </p>
<p>Again, this is why I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;ve thought very hard about this.</p>
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<cite class="fn">Zachriel</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-4">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184676">September 4th, 2017</a>
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<p>Zachriel: Does “Joe” have a responsibility to help Monty?</p>
<p>Jon Murphy: {blah, blah}</p>
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<cite class="fn">Ron H.</cite> <time datetime="2017-09-3">
<a href="https://www.aei.org/publication/some-new-venn-diagrams-inspired-by-hurricane-harvey/#comment-184667">September 3rd, 2017</a>
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<p>Z:</p>
<p>If that seemed too harsh, perhaps &#8220;banality&#8221; would be more acceptable.</p>
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